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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 12, 2010 6:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Micah--are you telling me the great "spiritual vs religion per se" debate was before your time? Someone will provide the link, or you can look it up, but I can summarize, and since I am writing this little history, it will reflect my take on it:

1) "spirituality" does not necessarily = "belief in God/standard religious viewpt"

2) the many overt religious tunes were possibly of interest to the band members from a spiritual but not organized religion perspective, and probably had more to do with the folk song/blue grass background of the boys than direct interest on their part in organized religion (certainly), though to varying degrees ind's in the band may have been "spiritual").

I know others view it differently, but I could have seen any number of atheistic bands doing those tunes without thinking twice...

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 12, 2010 7:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

I think last time we had this debate, someone pointed out (or I hope they did), that we really can't read too much into "spiritual" lyrics; if we applied the same reasoning to all the GD lyrics, we'd get nowhere. Did Bobby sing Me and My Uncle nine thousand times because he wanted to promote the murder of cowboys or the murder of uncles? Well, I don't think they sang about Jesus loving you best because they believed in (or wanted to get others to believe in) Jesus as savior. I don't know what any of them believe personally - the hints they've given over the years are often vaguely spiritual or New Agey - but it's just a song.

Bid You Goodnight is an amazing song. I love it; I actually love gospel music, and I'm a hardened atheist.

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Aug 12, 2010 9:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Another example: Was Bobby really promoting statutory rape with his "girl that's just 14" in Mexicali, or was he just embellishing a good story with an example of how low this character had fallen?

I had a friend who was disturbed that Jerry liked to sing Friend of the Devil so much, it always cracked me up.

This post was modified by Purple Gel on 2010-08-12 16:13:48

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 12, 2010 8:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Bobby didn't have much choice, Good Morning Little Schoolgirl was already taken.


Perhaps that't another thread: Do bands singing songs with questionable sexual morals really believe in that message? If so, I've got a rather troubling amount of deviants on my iPod.

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Aug 12, 2010 10:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

brings to my mind the 11/8/69 performance, where pig substitutes "13" for "17" in the closing line...

*shudder*

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Oh, dear.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 12, 2010 9:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

LOL, well, rock and roll really is as debauched as our parents said it is.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Aug 12, 2010 8:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

almost as bad - larceny, revenge and murder in Jack Straw...

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 12, 2010 7:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Songs can be taken out of the any religious tradition , and be sung simply as songs .
I believe I did miss the great debate . I hope it had more light then heat . There is no denying that Hunter used the Bible as a literary reference point in many of his lyrics . To fully understand the Western Tradition in the arts , knowledge of the Bible is key , regardless of anyone's personal beliefs . It's better then a left hand monkey wrench .


This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2010-08-12 14:20:43

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 12, 2010 8:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Right; as those that have chimed in above reflect, and you as well, viewing it (gospel heritage, bible, etc.) as a great literary source of inspiration of the human condition, this does not necessarily require a belief in God, religion, etc., etc.

As you can guess, the great debate dissolved into attempts to provide citations supporting or refuting the basic premise: Was Jerry religious?

My take on all the quotes was that he was "spiritual"; I also found that is a word I define very differently, and not necessarily "right", relative to many others on the other side of this debate at the Forum.

I view it in a whacky, New Age, California-esque fashion in which someone like my dear departed mother was very spiritual, always interested in developing her "spirit" with meditation, self exploration, embracing all the newest universal examinations and farcical trends, BUT was nonetheless an avowed atheist. Growing up in CA in the 60s this was the norm: reject org religion, BUT try to find something to replace it while in essence living as a secular humanist (to put it in the vernacular of today)...borrowing all sorts of "advice on how to live", perhaps even as a "Christ-like" individual, while staunchly opposing all the failed and deeply flawed org religion approachs (in the view of those at the time).

Again, just summarizing a purely off the charts, singular outlook common enough in N Cal, but perhaps far from the dictionary defn of "spiritual".

I think Jerry fell into this whacky camp of ind's that loved the path to enlightment while never really settling on ONE solution/approach/etc. People dug up some really amusing quotes of his that suggested he believed in cosmic connectivity of a sort that sounded much more like an acid trip than a well thought out notion of spirituality.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 12, 2010 11:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

I am happy I missed that thread re: Garcia . How can anyone know what is inside someone's head unless they directly ask them . And that won't bring you all the way , b/c they could be lying or confused . A thread on hearsay , based on hearsay , based on more hearsay won't buy you a cuppa coffee . Maybe in Nepal , though . ;)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 12, 2010 11:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Oh, I disagree...I am confident you and I, and certainly Rob and I can ask one another what we think about religion and expect a reasonable answer...just like any topic, right? I agree that none of us has the ANSWER but we certainly can know what we think about the big questions.

Not sure what're driving at here...if you find the old thread, the quotes are hilarious: the person asks Jerry pt blank about this and that, and he answers in a thoughtful fashion about this and that universal connection, blah, blah, blah...I think he comes off as very sincere and intelligent, just inclined to whackiness like so many that have rejected traditional org religion and are searching for some meaning...

I know that may sound patronizing, if not supercilious, and it may have only applied to Jerry on the day in question, as he certainly was a deep thinker/wide reader at some level, but I think the case is quite strong that he was a defn New Ager, wandering and exploring all the possibilities which were limitless in his universe (esp the West Coast).

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

That is a good point about the three individuals you mention . I already have a good sense of what the answers might be , and I would trust that . I already do .

JG came to a thread ? Rejoice ! Spiritualism of the 19th century is coming back . When do you guys do that ?

I am reticent to import anything onto Garcia . I think that is my main point . He was a Great Artist who touched us all deeply ( or the Muse through him ). We don't know , and I guess I am tired of guessing .

btw - my 2 youngest are preparing to go up Marye's Heights with their foam samurai swords ( as guns ). They have the right music now , so they are sure they will get to the wall .

edit - I tried to put up a photo of the 69th , but no . :(

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2010-08-12 19:04:10

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Wait a minute--are saying you don't trust written and video taped and tape recorded interviews?

I never said he came to a thread; I said he was interviewed.

Why are you even bothering if you have that take on what is necessary for communication? Well, of course, I know you don't...you read history, and it's far more removed than an interview.

I think something else is eating at you...go ahead, spill it; or we'll never get further.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

I'm trying to be careful and am stumbling over my own words . Also , I am not giving proper attention to postings . My fault . I am surprised how nervous I have gotten as the day has gone on about this post . No , that not it . I'm just obfuscating more . Personally , frankly , it's this ,

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/hartfordcourant/obituary.aspx?n=scott-graves&;pid=144637517&fhid=11934

Lisa is one of Deb's gal pals , and Scott was E & M 's baseball coach every year . It has me back on my feet with a cotton ball head . He died at work in a crane accident Tuesday .

edit - the link is somewhat working . His name was Scott Graves .

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2010-08-12 19:38:19

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Poster: high flow Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Sorry to hear that news. Unexpected death too early can certainly leave one reaching for answers.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

This is thew first time I have been alone , since Tuesday . Now that I don't have to put the front up for the kids , I am back on my heels . Shaky . It's all so fragile .

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

My sincere apologies...didn't mean to push you toward this, as I was thinking it was more along the lines of "what did Jerry really believe" and so forth.

Hang in there; times like these do indeed try men (and women), but what you endure is often a measure of what you are in the end.

And like Ringlee O says, Box of Rain is all

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 12, 2010 1:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Thanks WT . I'm going to get offline . I can not write properly .

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Poster: user unknown Date: Aug 12, 2010 3:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

condolences to the family

positive thoughts, vibes and prayers out to all touched by this tragedy

Death leaves a heartache no one can heal
Love leaves a memory no one can steal
~From a headstone in Ireland

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

I can't get the link to work but I gather a friend of yours died? I'm so sorry.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

It's the randomness , he was 40 , with 6 kids . I was never friends w/ Scott , but he was the baseball coach for my kids the last several years . Fall Ball was about to start . Lisa is very good friends with Deb. They , she , live(s) less then a mile from us . You say g'bye to your S/O in the morning and then you have a nightmare for dinner . This is the first time my youngest two have gone through grief .

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 12, 2010 1:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Oh, I'm sorry, that's awful.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Aug 12, 2010 12:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

Well yeah but I think he was also sometimes having a harmless laugh at the interviewer's expense.

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Aug 12, 2010 3:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

"but I think he was also sometimes having a harmless laugh at the interviewer's expense."

this is my take as well; while an interview certainly gives one a good 'feel' for a person's thoughts, beliefs, facts of their life, opinions about things, etc., there is always the 'in-the-spotlight' aspect, and for celebrities, the 'role' or 'stage' or 'public' persona aspect as well; caution is required when deciphering interviews for reliable data

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 12, 2010 8:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

I know what you and Arb are getting at, but with Jerry, he was often, in the early yrs, IMHO, almost the definition of earnest. He had a child like exuberance and sincerity that comes thru as if he is enjoying the exchange and the opportunity to explore the "big questions" as much as the interviewer is getting it all down...I think that often in the early days, Jerry could very much be taken at his word. But, I will admit I often am quite gullible.

EG, in the widely circulated 1967 interview ("...move the human race one step forward...")* he's sincere, as are the exchanges recounted in Signpost to New Space in 71, whereas with Hugh Hefner in 69 he appears more tongue in cheek...



*doesn't this just reek with affection and ooze sentimentality? Whether he was religious, atheist, or naive as they come, you gotta love the guy that says this:

Jerry Garcia, 1967: "What we're thinking about is a peaceful planet. We're not thinking of anything else. We're not thinking about any kind of power. We're not thinking about any of those kinds of struggles. We're not thinking about revolution or war or any of that. We would all like to be able to live an uncluttered life, a simple life, a good life and think about moving the whole human race ahead a step."


Hey! I used a footnote in a post...cool.

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Poster: buscameby Date: Aug 12, 2010 10:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: And We Bid You Goodnight

and its bigger than a drive in movie OU EEEEEEEEEEE